What did He gain? Reconciliation to us. Jesus thought so much of it He was willing to go through all that - for our rescue. Excellent.
And it took all us to put him on that cross. I have NEVER - even as an 8-yr old - understood how people could blame "the Jews" with a straight face without pointing a finger back at themselves. Interesting insights by Rick on how Pilate could explain himself.
I'm astonished you have met a number of Christians who are ignorant of Psalm 22. There's a good reason for reading the bible through, cover to cover.
Your caller was right about intermingling pagan symbols. We could throw in hot cross buns while we're at it. It creates confusion and obfuscation.
I appreciate your comments. Rick had previously told me that the time period he imagined Jesus was forsaken was incredibly short. Our friend Pastor John ( a classmate of mine in high school that I lost track of until he showed up in Rick's Facebook friend list) came up with three hours. I am astonished. I got the impression they were separating Jesus from His Godhood, like His God part wasn't forsaken, but His human part was. My head spins.
I have always been in churches since my teens where Psalm 22 was taught as the preview of Christ on the cross and Psalm 23 was the transition of the faithful to Heaven (as would happen with the first resurrection upon Christ's death [Matthew 27:51-52] and will happen to believers at our death or translation).
Just this morning I heard Greg Koukl weigh in on this. This does not fully engage the question of "did he step outside his Godhead." I would say he certainly stepped outside his privileges. But to add a little more depth to the idea, while being careful to not fall into what Greg calls a 'pastorism' (illustration in a clever saying that shouldn't be taken too far), he suggested to remember how in the closeness of Jesus' relationship with God, God always poured out nothing but good on him. Now, when the time has come to be our substitute, God poured out nothing but wrath on him. "Why hast thou forsaken me and aren't stopping" shows the tremendous contrast from intimacy to alienation in the hope of deliverance (and previews our position vis-a-vis God I might add).
From this I also infer the reverse contrast we will fully experience one day. We will completely relate to God with something akin (not identical - always be careful with comparisons) to the same intimacy.
For the record, I have never seen Ben Hur. BAYSIDER
Rather than suggest that Christ was separated from his holy nature for even a moment, why not focus on the central point of Philippians 2:5-8?
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! (Philippians 2:5-8 NIV)
I get that, and it's an extremely good point, and the discussion has nothing to do with our security of salvation. Just on a theoretical level and an attempt to understand what I'm reading, I find it hard to fathom that Jesus was NOT God for one nano-second.
Love this discussion. I have my own thoughts. And they are that Christ knew EXACTLY what he had to go through, and NEVER doubted. To think otherwise just muddies the water.
What did He gain? Reconciliation to us. Jesus thought so much of it He was willing to go through all that - for our rescue. Excellent.
ReplyDeleteAnd it took all us to put him on that cross. I have NEVER - even as an 8-yr old - understood how people could blame "the Jews" with a straight face without pointing a finger back at themselves. Interesting insights by Rick on how Pilate could explain himself.
I'm astonished you have met a number of Christians who are ignorant of Psalm 22. There's a good reason for reading the bible through, cover to cover.
Your caller was right about intermingling pagan symbols. We could throw in hot cross buns while we're at it. It creates confusion and obfuscation.
BAYSIDER
I appreciate your comments.
DeleteRick had previously told me that the time period he imagined Jesus was forsaken was incredibly short.
Our friend Pastor John ( a classmate of mine in high school that I lost track of until he showed up in Rick's Facebook friend list) came up with three hours. I am astonished.
I got the impression they were separating Jesus from His Godhood, like His God part wasn't forsaken, but His human part was. My head spins.
That is...an odd take on things...
ReplyDeleteI have always been in churches since my teens where Psalm 22 was taught as the preview of Christ on the cross and Psalm 23 was the transition of the faithful to Heaven (as would happen with the first resurrection upon Christ's death [Matthew 27:51-52] and will happen to believers at our death or translation).
ReplyDeleteYou've been in good churches.
DeleteJust this morning I heard Greg Koukl weigh in on this. This does not fully engage the question of "did he step outside his Godhead." I would say he certainly stepped outside his privileges. But to add a little more depth to the idea, while being careful to not fall into what Greg calls a 'pastorism' (illustration in a clever saying that shouldn't be taken too far), he suggested to remember how in the closeness of Jesus' relationship with God, God always poured out nothing but good on him. Now, when the time has come to be our substitute, God poured out nothing but wrath on him. "Why hast thou forsaken me and aren't stopping" shows the tremendous contrast from intimacy to alienation in the hope of deliverance (and previews our position vis-a-vis God I might add).
ReplyDeleteFrom this I also infer the reverse contrast we will fully experience one day. We will completely relate to God with something akin (not identical - always be careful with comparisons) to the same intimacy.
For the record, I have never seen Ben Hur.
BAYSIDER
" I have never seen Ben Hur."
ReplyDeleteNow THAT's heretical!
You know, with all the news of transgender fluff, you really need an explanation of having "seen Ben Hur."
DeleteThat's hilarious!
DeleteRather than suggest that Christ was separated from his holy nature for even a moment, why not focus on the central point of Philippians 2:5-8?
ReplyDeleteIn your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! (Philippians 2:5-8 NIV)
That is, although Christ was God, He did not grasp that part of his nature tightly, but more tightly held to his human experience.
DeleteMind you, this takes some imagining of the metaphysical experience of a Being so far beyond us that we really cannot imagine it.
I get that, and it's an extremely good point, and the discussion has nothing to do with our security of salvation.
ReplyDeleteJust on a theoretical level and an attempt to understand what I'm reading, I find it hard to fathom that Jesus was NOT God for one nano-second.
Love this discussion.
ReplyDeleteI have my own thoughts.
And they are that Christ knew EXACTLY what he had to go through, and NEVER doubted.
To think otherwise just muddies the water.
Exactly.
Delete